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 Inläggsrubrik: 1990 560SEL (m117, KE-Jet)?
InläggPostat: lör 07-12-22 14:05 
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Blev medlem: lör 07-12-22 12:42
Inlägg: 14
Ort: Autobahn
Hi everybody,

I have the car mentioned above and an serious problem with gas station bills :roll: and beyond that a keen interest in biofuels.

Some words about me:
My nick explains as follows: in the good old days, when the internet was still of wood, there used to be a german parsimony-forum on saabs. It was common to choose a nickname wich referred to the car in question - and this was a 1984 900 turbo 16s (which everywhere outside Germany was called "aero"). And as aero reads easier (and sounds so much cooler) than "turbo 16S", that was my nickname then... and still is, as I carried the nick to all forums I visited (you know, that is so much easier).

I post here in the "international" section, as I don`t speak swedish well (to be honest, I can pay at a gas station, ask for the way and I can tell a girl that she looks great, but that's it. So I better say I do not speak swedish at all.)
I understand a little bit of swedish though - if it is written, as swedish and german are of the same origin, but when listening to someone I find it hard to understand anything. This depends on the region, Stockholm is okay, Norrland ist great (they tend to speak slower there), and Göteborg is the absolute catastrohe, only topped by Skåne.
I have a dictionary here besides my computer and will try to make my way through the swedish section, but please understand that I might have one or the other problem following the discussions there.


Having had the above mentioned aero, a 1€-Saab 90, a really cool but really dead 900 turbo 8 Valve DeLuxe and a fine 1984 turbo 8 valve sedan (ice blue, red leather and rosé plush - great composition 8) ), at the moment I drive a 1986 Saab 90 as a cheap winter car, a 1984 Mercedes w123 300d as daily driver (only in summer!) running on pure vegetable oil and I also have a 1990 w126 560SEL as a toy (you cannot afford to drive this daily, at least not in Germany).
The w126 ist intended to pass the toy status and to become a long-distance cruiser (the diesel is much to loud and the saab as well.)
Unfortunately, it is impossible to get the 560 below 12 liters per 100km(and for that, you have to drive really calm), 14-16 liters beeing much more common (but only if you drive sensibly). In town it is impossible to get consumption below 20 liters, and if you find a free autobahn...
Well, this car ist damn fast, but as we say in Germany "Kraft kommt von Kraftstoff", you have to pay the price for this.
When I still had my 900 turbo, a comrade figured out it would be much cheaper to spend 1 hour in a brothel in Poland than to drive 1 hour at full speed. (well, he leads a tank platoon, and combat troops really seem to prefer simple solutions. Ah yes, and this special lieutenant is really painless.)
With the S-Class, you could do the same, except you could choose a really weird one in Germany.
"Unfortunately", I do have a girlfriend AND I have to travel regularly for some hundred kilometers to see her, so my comrade's suggestion on how to save money doesn't work for me.
So fuel costs have to be cut down, but how?

One solution migt be the installation of a LPG tank. This is no big deal, there are lot of gas stations in Germany and at our neighbours (to the east as well as to the west) even more. But you loose a lot of luggage space. And as I usually have four people in the car, you need every cubic inch of cargo space you have.
Then I often drive to sweden, where I find ethanol on nearly every gas station, but have never seen LPG. And when doing a 8000km-trip in your holydays, fuel cost really matter, so I don't want to have to reach back to fossile fuels, which is why an ethanol conversion could make sense even if I take te step to LPG.

Ethanol ist slowly coming up here in Germany, and a gas station has opened right in my parents' neighbourhood. And in Berlin (another frequent destination) I also know where I could get the "spirits".
Ethanol is about 1 € here in Germany, even if you calculate a lesser mileage per liter you would end up at 1,20 which ist considerably lower than 1,55 to 1,60, which 98 octane can cost here.


---------------------------------
Ok, enoug personal, let's get on with business 8)

As far as I have understood the discussion here in the forum, it is possible to convert a KE-jet to ethanol by lowering the so-called "Steuerdruck". This can be done by modifying an electro-hydraulic actuator (which in normal use adjust fuel delivery as to lambda sond readings).

So far, so easy. BUT: my car absolutely has to be flexifuel, as it might be that there is no thanol available if you run out of gas (which can happen very quickly with this car, 90 Liters just are not enough).

So my questions are:

- Will a converted car be able to drive on e85 as well as on pure fossile gas?

- How to do the conversion? Is this only an adjustment or are replacement parts needed?
(As the Autobahn knows no speed limit my horses have to work from time to time, so I really fear running to lean... And I don't want to go to rich on fossile, either.)


- Has anybody ever converted an M117?

- As ethanol is hygrophile, I fear corrosion in the fuel system, especially in the fuel ditributor (I do not know neither the english nor the swedish term, in german ist ist "Mengenteiler"). Are there any exeriences with this?


Thanks a lot for your help (Tack så mycket för hjälpen, if I am right),

Martin


PS: It is very common in Germany to run old Mercedes and VW on vegetable oil, so if you have any questions on this... perhaps I can help, bust at least I will know someone who can!


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InläggPostat: lör 07-12-22 14:37 
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Welcome to the future of your Benz, Aero84!

I have converted several Mercedes, among them a 190E -86 with the same KE-jet system as you have (but without lambda control), M102.
(Also M111, E220 and M104 ,AMGC36) is run by me on 100% E85 , but these are a modern ECU/FR systems of course.)

You can read some here:
http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic ... highlight=

and here (best):
http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic ... hlight=eha

It is the EHA that have to be adjusted.
The only problem is if you neccessarily need a flexifuel car.
A re-adjustment of the EHA might be a little tricky.
Maybe the best would be to get an extra EHA-valve and have one for petrol and one for E85.
The switch of EHA is actually done by 2 screws and a connector, under the airfiler.

There are no problems with corrosion or other stuff, coldstarts are also manageble by controlling the coldstartvalve + heating/manipulation of the tempsiganl of the engien to the ECU etc.

Please let us know if you need translation help...

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InläggPostat: lör 07-12-22 15:11 
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Blev medlem: lör 07-12-22 12:42
Inlägg: 14
Ort: Autobahn
karlmb skrev:
Welcome to the future of your Benz, Aero84!

You can read some here: YOUR FIRST LINK


This one I already read.

Citat:
and here (best):
YOUR SECOND LINK

This I also found, I started reading but than had to accept it is no good idea to try reading technical discussions in a foreign language if it is 23:30, you just came home from duty and have got no sleep the night before...
This one I meant when I said I will try to fight my way throgh the forum - I am fighting with the swedish language and my dictionary now, but I think I will survive :roll: :lol:
But it will surely take some time.


Citat:
It is the EHA that have to be adjusted.
The only problem is if you neccessarily need a flexifuel car.
A re-adjustment of the EHA might be a little tricky.
Maybe the best would be to get an extra EHA-valve and have one for petrol and one for E85.
The switch of EHA is actually done by 2 screws and a connector, under the airfiler.

Hmmm. So flexifuel would mean I had to exchange the eha every time?

I will be in Berlin at the end of the year, then I might be able to get to the garage and have al look at the parts (in the car). But this seems a really mean job to do on the street or at the gas station ;-)
Then secondly, you will never have e85 oder e5 (or e0) in your tank, but any blend in between. Are there any experiences which blends the unmodified eha can cope with, and which blends the modified one? I fear there would be some "medium" blends like e50 or so none of the two settings will work with.


Citat:
There are no problems with corrosion or other stuff, coldstarts are also manageble by controlling the coldstartvalve + heating/manipulation of the tempsiganl of the engien to the ECU etc.

Now that's good news...

Citat:
Please let us know if you need translation help...

I will! But I am trying to get around... after all, I have to learn the language one day. :wink:


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InläggPostat: lör 07-12-22 19:31 
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Citat:
This one I meant when I said I will try to fight my way throgh the forum - I am fighting with the swedish language and my dictionary now, but I think I will survive


Take your time.
Most important stuff (EHA adjustement) is in english (and a little Greman!) I think.

Citat:
But this seems a really mean job to do on the street or at the gas station
Then secondly, you will never have e85 oder e5 (or e0) in your tank, but any blend in between. Are there any experiences which blends the unmodified eha can cope with, and which blends the modified one? I fear there would be some "medium" blends like e50 or so none of the two settings will work with.


OK, maybe not on the street, but it's still only to remove the airfilter (3-4 screws on that engine), release the pressure (17 mm SW on the pressure side of the fuel pressure regulator), stay away from the little fuel rain.., tigthen it again, unscrew the 2 screws of the EHA (be careful not to loose the two o-rings), remove the EHA and disconnect it from the wiring (2-pole), and re-mount in reversed order.
If the tank is not fully empty it will be quite OK anyway since the lambda regulation can take care of about -+20% (and you need 32% or something when going from 100% petrol to 100% E85 to maintain lambda 1)
This is also a way to get further without exchanging the EHA: if you know that the end of the travel will be in an area without E85, when the tank is half full, fill it up so the percentage of E85 goes down to 75% (have to take it step by 20-25% at the time in order not to set a faultcode or even get the engine in limphome state). Then drive again to maybe 1/4 of tank left and fill upp so it't will be 50% E85 and so on.
If you then can expect to reach an E85 station again, just g back in steps of 25%.
If not, fill a last time with only 25% E85. The engine will then be at the limit of leaning out but will probably make it.
When this tank is almost empty, replace the EHA (to the "petrol EHA") and fill up with 100 (75% is enough probably) petrol.
The lambda control will take care of the rest.
Back to E85 will be similar of course.
But are you sure that you can't make it on E85 in all Germany by now?
Did you study this section?:
http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... arch.phtml

Seems to be 108 stations already now fairly well spread over Germany.

Oh, I forgot to say, what a lovely machine to make green!
I think you will be one the first in the world to convert this baby!
Only Mercedes V8 I know of is converted is an old 280 SE 3.5 with D-jetronic.
It's really special to get more power than origanal and less CO2 than a Lupo or something, and that even in an real car like a super-Benz!
Only problem here in Sweden with my AMG is the lack of Autobahn, that's for sure!

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InläggPostat: lör 07-12-22 20:45 
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Blev medlem: lör 07-12-22 12:42
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karlmb skrev:
OK, maybe not on the street, but it's still only to remove the airfilter (3-4 screws on that engine), release the pressure (17 mm SW on the pressure side of the fuel pressure regulator), stay away from the little fuel rain.., tigthen it again, unscrew the 2 screws of the EHA (be careful not to loose the two o-rings), remove the EHA and disconnect it from the wiring (2-pole), and re-mount in reversed order.
If the tank is not fully empty it will be quite OK anyway since the lambda regulation can take care of about -+20% (and you need 32% or something when going from 100% petrol to 100% E85 to maintain lambda 1)
This is also a way to get further without exchanging the EHA: if you know that the end of the travel will be in an area without E85, when the tank is half full, fill it up so the percentage of E85 goes down to 75% (have to take it step by 20-25% at the time in order not to set a faultcode or even get the engine in limphome state). Then drive again to maybe 1/4 of tank left and fill upp so it't will be 50% E85 and so on.
If you then can expect to reach an E85 station again, just g back in steps of 25%.
If not, fill a last time with only 25% E85. The engine will then be at the limit of leaning out but will probably make it.
When this tank is almost empty, replace the EHA (to the "petrol EHA") and fill up with 100 (75% is enough probably) petrol.
The lambda control will take care of the rest.
Back to E85 will be similar of course.



Well, I think this is no option. Most kilometers the car does it does on the autobahn. It is supposed to be a strong contender in what ist called NATO-rallye... Friday noon it starts. Anywhere across Europe, Engines are revved up and then...
As I said, the car will do most of its milege on long-distance flights. That is leave the barracks friday noon, drive 600- to 700km and arrive somewhere around midnight (due to roadworks, traffic jams and the like).
And sunday evening you start again, arriving somewhen betewen midnight and monday morning...
So I must be able to
a) fill up the car near the barracks (which, with e85, I can't at the moment)
b) find a refill on the way (The car wo'nt make the trip on a single tank. Furhermore the refill must take place to be near the autobahn, as there is no time to spare. At the moment, I do not know of any e85 station filfilling these conditions.)
c) fill up the car again after reaching the destination
d) refill after the weekend
e) refill on the journey back
f) and refill again at a place somewhere near the barracks.

Problems with this is:
1) there is no e85 available in the entire region (the next station is 70km away, so that would only make sense if your'e accidentally coming this way. Driving there and back only for a refill of gas, pardon e85 would make no sense financially).
2) I drive mostly three routes: Eifel-Berlin (and sometimes on to the polish border) and Eifel - Lake Konstanz (Bodensee) and, thirdly, Eifel - Ruhrgebiet.
On neither of the routes I do know a single e85-station that would be within reach from the autobahn.
3) In Berlin I know where I could refill e85. On the polish border, you cannot, but gas is cheap in Poland (ok, not cheap, but much cheaper than in Germany). On Lake Konstanz, I would refill in Switzerland (98 octane cost as much there as a litre of e85 in germany)
Only if I go to the Ruhr, I could refill there and get back to the barracks and have still enough left to get back to the Ruhr.

One might say that this station IS indeed on the way to Berlin AND within reach of the Autobahn and might well be sufficient to reach Berlin: that's only partly true. The S-Class is a thirsty animal - you CAN go from the Ruhr to Berlin or even the polish border, but then nothing may go wrong. You'll reach you'r destination on the last drop of gas. One single traffic jam can ruin this calculation. It's such a heavy car, while it can be "quite" economical when kept at steady speed (that ist, 12 Litres at 120kph with the cruise on) once you have to accelerate and decelerate your fuel consumption rockets up skywards (I had tolearn the hard way that one single jam can decrease your mileage by nearly 100km).
I've done this once, it's not funny to reach the border, fill up and notice you have only 2 litre left in a tank of 90 Litres at a fuel consumption of well over 12 litres. 15 km more, and that would have been no good end.
And secondly, this station in the Ruhr closes at 9 pm - so when you're coming back on sunday evening, you will get nothing.

And with ethanol, one must also take into account the decreased mileage...


So it seems to me absolutely essential that the car be flexifuel.


Citat:
But are you sure that you can't make it on E85 in all Germany by now?
Did you study this section?:
YOUR LINK


I did not know this yet, but unfortunately nothing more is listed than in the databases I used to know. But thanks anyway.


Citat:
Oh, I forgot to say, what a lovely machine to make green!

Oh yes!
8)
Citat:
I think you will be one the first in the world to convert this baby!

I would not be so sure. I bet there is a freak somewhere in scandinavia who already did this. You know, here in "continental" europe all scandinavians have a notorious reputation of doing crazy things with cars.
Must have something to do with the longer winters. Or with the fact that your reguations seem to make so much more sense. Anyway, a motorist's life must be so much easier up there in the north...


Citat:
Only Mercedes V8 I know of is converted is an old 280 SE 3.5 with D-jetronic.

I heard these old ones should be very easy to convert, but I know none.
A friend of mine has an w109 300SEL (straight six) he is planning to convert one day. But this one has a mechanical injection derived from the old diesel injections...

Citat:
Only problem here in Sweden with my AMG is the lack of Autobahn, that's for sure!

You know, we're open for everybody! :D
Why not pass you'r next holyday in Germany? You might see Hamburg, pass on to Berlin for some days , visit Dresden, take a trip into the Elbsandsteingebirge (really impressive rocks falling straight down to the river Elbe), visit Munich, there visit the BMW museum, make a trip to the Alps, on your way back you stop at Stuttgart and visit the new Mercedes-Benz museum as well as Porsche, then stop in the Eifel and watch a race or even drive yourself on the Nürburgring. Then you take a stop in the Ruhr, germans industrial heart, and on the last leg you make a stop in Wolfsburg in the "automobile city".
It's so easy to fill some weeks... (not only with cars!) and besides, your AMG will feel at home 8)


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Citat:
So it seems to me absolutely essential that the car be flexifuel.


There are a few things against the idea.
Firstly, a flexifuel solution can't be expected to work 100% as maybe in a factory FFV.
Secondly, your description of traveling seems relatively simple to fulfil with E85 allt the way.
The car is big, and the trunk is also. Why don't you mount an extra tank 60-90l, from a W126 or a W124, behind the std tank?
They can be connected by T-branches in the filling area as well as on the outlet (largest) hoses under the floor.
Tankventilation also T-branshed and everything else as standard. Should work as a std car.
Even the tankgauge in tank 1 should show correct vallues (almost at least) since the tanks would be communicating vessels.
On the other hand, NATO staff should be familiar with a set of Jerry cans...?
Extra tank(s) will aquire some trunkspace ofcourse but compared to a LPG-tank I think it's less.
And forget LPG...if you are after power...
I think you should also demand a E85 filling station near you base, also defence branch of the society has to switch to more CO2 neutral solutions since they are using a lot of fossiles.

Citat:
I bet there is a freak somewhere in scandinavia who already did this. You know, here in "continental" europe all scandinavians have a notorious reputation of doing crazy things with cars.
Must have something to do with the longer winters. Or with the fact that your reguations seem to make so much more sense. Anyway, a motorist's life must be so much easier up there in the north...


Hehe, well did you see this guy...: www.limmet.se
Finnish though..
Yes, I think german regulations seems very stupid, did you read this?:
http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic.php?t=1333


Citat:
A friend of mine has an w109 300SEL (straight six) he is planning to convert one day. But this one has a mechanical injection derived from the old diesel injections...



Like my W113 Pagoda then!
When the time is ready (and my restoration finally is finished..), I see no problem converting a in-line pump like these.
The fuel amount is metered as function of throttle angle + engine speed.
Throttle is adjusted in no time, speed is by 2 adjusting screws, on for low-mid register, one for high register speeds.
I did a recalibration once with a mobile CO-meter and see no problem adding some 30 % everywhere.

Citat:
You know, we're open for everybody!


The trip will be made some day sooner or later!
Last time we where in Germany was 2 years ago when we imported a W124. (Stupid swedish stealers who almost newer sold a new merc with ASD in the winter country of Sweden! In Germany we found at least 10 on mobile.de. I Switzerland, ASD was std...)
We stayed near the danish border though since next E85 fillingstation was in Hamburg at the time... :roll:
Jerrycans where in the trunk..
When will they open a E85 station near Nürnburg...? :twisted:

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Not so good news: the project is on hold or the moment.

14 days ago I was in the "shelter" and visited the good star, and besides taking place in the wide seats, smelling leather and wood and enjoying the view over the vast mirroring sculpture in front, crowned by the tree-spoked-star, I also took a closer look on the flagship. After all, the number plates read "april to october", so the day to wake her up will come soon.

And to my horror I had to discover the first traces of rust on the rear wheelarches and on the rear window frame. :shock:

No, I won't let her go out in this condition, that would not be good for her health at all.
So this has to be gotten in order first.

The diesel (or should I say: the frech fries fat) won't see the road again neither, at least not in Germany until he has reached the age of 30 years and qualifies for the "historical car" number plate. Plant oil has risen to 1€, so with a car tax of 865€ per year it is no longer economical. Besides, you are no longer allowed to enter big cities with cars with emission classifications below euro2 (diesel) or euro 1 (gasoline), and I don't see why I should pay taxes for a car I am no longer allowed to drive with.
The Saab 90 will leave soon, the place of the daily driver will be taken over by a MY 85 900 turbo 16V (LH-jet 2.2, catalytic converter to be replaced by a Euro2 sports cat).
Saves more than 1000€ on taxes and insurace fees. Now it's time to work through the forum learning about LH 2.2 and possible problems with turbos
(in Germany, some people report destroyed gas pumps, dissolving fuel lines and one freak (I know him personally) has experienced melting spark plugs on his turbocharged b202 after 300km full throttle - although one must admit this engine has no great similarities to stock one any more. :roll:)


I will report here as soon as the great Sindelfingen beauty is back on the road!


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nothing about the 560, this is Snövit (Schneewittchen), my everyday 900 turbo:

She now has some some rust holes less, and I made the first steps towards alcohol.
The car drives fine with e35, as long as you stay below 2500 to 3000 rpm. The car does not suppoprt full boost, especially not above 3500. I guess she is leaning out. Will search air leaks and replace fuel pressure regulator by a 3bar one (car has 2.5 bar at the moment, as it is a LH2.2).
Aim ist to get her run calmly with both stock fuel and any blend up to e40.

And yes, fuel consumption with e30 is increased by ca 0.75 liters.


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Snövit also had severe driveability problems after cold starts.

As she displayed these also, (but in lesser form) with regular fuel, I grew sceptical wether verything was ok. Also, at high boost even with regular fuel APC cut back boost.
Last Weekend a friend of mine found out the wrong throttle body beeing installed. In addition to a possible air leak this also lead to a switch beeing mounted reversely, that is it opened while it should close.

Wonder how she was able to run that way. She has a very strong will to live. :!:

After we finished work, we made a short test drive. BOOST! :twisted:
Things looked good.
The next day we made a trip to Berlin to get my star cruiser out of the garage. Drove slowly to save money, as the Sonderklasse would empty my pockets rather soon.
Schneewittchen made the trip to berlin with approx e37 as if it were gas.
We drove strictly 2500rpm, which translates to 96 to 97 km/h (according to GPS. Speedometer in these old Saabs are remarcably accurate. :shock: )
On a total of 680km, including ca 120km of Berlin city traffic, the rest beeing highway cruising, the car made a fuel economy of under 6.8 liters /100 km on e37!

On our way back the next day, we went to 3000rpm, which is just short of 120km/h. Something around e40 in the tank, she leaned out on the uphill sections requiring somewhat boost, so we filled up with 10 liters of gas after approx 330km.
Afterwards, everything was fine.
Fuel economy at 3000rpm / ca 120km/h is about 8.3 liters / 100km/h.

Drove like she was renewed - WAY better than she did before our work session.

Brave car!


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Fun to read about the swedish sleeper...
Why dont convert her too?
Swedes like the boose...

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Well... full conversion is out of question, as I do not have the possibility to fill up with e85 anywhere near home.

So a flexitune or similar might be a possibilty, but prices are relatively high in Germany, and most of them are illegal... In addition, I often hear that there are problems when starting a cold engine, and driveability issues when the engine is cold.
So I am a little bit reluctant to spend several hundred Euros on that.

At the moment I am choosing to blend at about 30 to 35%, when I pass an e85 gas station. That restricts me to max 3000rpm and "base boost", otherwise she will lean out.
So I cannot do this when I know I will be in a hurry.

With a full or flexifuel conversion I might no longer worry about that, but there is another issue to take care of:
With e85, knock will not be detected by the APC. Some members of our forum have done a little bit of testing. (Would you know a better test ground than a german Autobahn at midnight?) 8)
They burned spark plugs (not so much damage) but also got melting pistons. The APC did not, in any case, sense any knock and kept boost pressure insanely high.
In one case, the engine stalled after 300km full throttle. Investigation showed the electrodes on all the spark plugs had been burnt off.


So I have been advised never to run a 900 turbo on ethanol with anything above "base boost", even if I could avoid leaning out by converting the car.
Ethanol and autobahn speeds on a 900 just don't belong together...

The current explanation I was told is that the different burn pattern of ethanol causes knock to move away from the 5 -5.5kHz range where the APC expects to detect knock, and nobody knows where to listen for knock with e85.
However, using ion current for knock detection seems to work with e85. No problems have been reported from Saab 9000 with trionic.


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InläggPostat: ons 08-11-05 17:26 
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You will not have knock problems with E85. Period.
But leaning out might give some problems on turbo engines possibly.

And there are other issues with the APC, that gives these phenomena.
Im sure that here are some SAAB people having ideas for this.
But take that in a new, SAAB related thread.

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