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InläggPostat: ons 08-09-24 19:26 
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hej Ceyal

you wrote, some of the data are incorrect or out of date....i suspect that

thats the reason i use the official list from that government site....i think that should be correct, but i cannot proof it.

in 2009 my wife and me will stay in the Provence for our holidays in June, and up to then i hope there are enough stations then, especially for the way back.

_________________
best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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Hej Berti,

This summer we went to the french-spanisch border with the GPS loaded with our database. We never had to tank any petrol and all stations we tried were correct. Still we have several not yet in the frensh governments database.

The only problem we had that one or two stations in germany at night needed an "EC-karte" which our VISA and Mastercards didn't work on.

In France where they use "Carte-Bleue" the VISA cart didn't work most of the time but Mastercard worked all of the stations.

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: tor 08-09-25 12:29 
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hej Aryan,

i do not really suspect any problems in 2009 :roll: , but its better to make good plans before swichting to petrol :D ....even because my car is converted monovalent to E85

indeed, in Germany nearly everyehwe the ec-card is accepted (there are only a few stations which accept only their own cards)

hm, MasterCard? i don't have a MC, but Visa....

i hope its not necessary to organize a MC. whats about ec-card? nearly everyone in Germany uses them

_________________
best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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InläggPostat: tor 08-09-25 13:11 
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Volvo-Berti skrev:
hej Aryan,

i do not really suspect any problems in 2009 :roll: , but its better to make good plans before swichting to petrol :D ....even because my car is converted monovalent to E85


Yes I don't know you autonomy but 2007 we went to the Italian north-west Mediterranean coast (not that far from France) and then we brought 2 x 20L jerrycans (=40l extra!) and easily crossed the Alps and drove through Northern Italy. Northern Switzerland was the last ethanolstation then. We did a trip to France to fill the car up as well as the jerrycans before we drove back. This way we never needed any petrol. Before the trip in 2008 I installed a larger petroltank (from 44l to 58l) and there where much more stations so we never needed the jerrycans even though I did bring them.

The GPS was a very good help, as soon as we had filled the car up we coould already plan or the next tank stop along the trip.
And by now the situation has improved even more so I do not think you need to revert to petrol if you plan a little.

Volvo-Berti skrev:
indeed, in Germany nearly everyehwe the ec-card is accepted (there are only a few stations which accept only their own cards)

hm, MasterCard? i don't have a MC, but Visa....

i hope its not necessary to organize a MC. whats about ec-card? nearly everyone in Germany uses them


The German EC card system is a pain in the rear for us foreigners because it often does not work with either VISA or Mastercards.

I think your EC card will not work in France, Visa seldom works in the Carte Blue card readers in France, you really need either Carte Bleue or Mastercard.

/Aryan

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: tor 08-09-25 15:31 
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EC-card????
= Eurocard?

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InläggPostat: tor 08-09-25 22:57 
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aryan skrev:
I think your EC card will not work in France, Visa seldom works in the Carte Blue card readers in France, you really need either Carte Bleue or Mastercard. /Aryan

Hi
I'm probably not the best one to explain which foreign cards works in France ... just because I am using ... a French one :D

Carte Bleu (CB logo) is in fact a consortium of all French Banks which provides compatibility, at least for French users, of all cards in all card readers in France. This consortium has been created 30 yearrs ago to promote the chip card use.

Each bank has an an affiliation to either Visa or MasterCard ... so in fact we have in our pocket either a CB-Mastercard or a CB-Visa .. but they all work similarly in all shops throughout the country.

All French cards, for some 30 years now, have both a chip inserted and a magnetic stripe at the back .. this is mandatory to get the CB logo on.

And I suspect the problem you encountered could come from this. Some automatic petrol teller work with the chip while some others work with the stripe ... and of course a foreign card without any chip will not work in the first type.

I saw from time to time a paper indicating "French card only" on a petrol teller and I though it was a shortcut to indicate 'chip card only' but may be I am wrong.

Expect it helps ... if not : sorry for that
Bye


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InläggPostat: fre 08-09-26 11:26 
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@Karl
no, ec-card means electronic cash card, its a card given by the German banks to nearly everyone. this card is used to get money and to pay cashless in shops.

@Ceyal
so is it necessary to get a mastercard for France? its not really a problem, but it costs 20€ per year.

@Aryan
to build in a larger fuel tank is not possible. my cars tank is about 75 L, but the consumption is about 13 and more, only on highways its lower, about 12.5 L

you can see it here http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht/212714.html

using jerrycans in France is not allowed over a maximum of 10 L. Even my car is a station wagon, which does not have a closed trunk.

but as i see, every month the number oft french stations is rising, so in Spring 2009 there will be enough stations :) ...even if i get a MC.

_________________
best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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Volvo-Berti skrev:
to build in a larger fuel tank is not possible. my cars tank is about 75 L, but the consumption is about 13 and more, only on highways its lower, about 12.5 L .


You mean not easy, but much is possible. I installed an 15l tank into the rearfender from a Citroen BX which is there instead of the normal filling tube, I think that this solution could fit into the fender of a Volvo 745 as well.

Volvo-Berti skrev:
using jerrycans in France is not allowed over a maximum of 10 L. Even my car is a station wagon, which does not have a closed trunk.


Really? Nobody ever told me that , but maybe it is hard to see how big they are if you keep them in the trunk with some shoes, towels or pillows over them while filling them up :-)

Maybe you just aren't allowed to have more than 10l petrol in a jerrycan, and then you are safe with 40l E85 ;-)

Bild

And the guy after doesn't even say anything either!

Bild

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


Senast redigerad av aryan fre 08-09-26 13:20, redigerad totalt 2 gånger.

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Ceyal35 skrev:
All French cards, for some 30 years now, have both a chip inserted and a magnetic stripe at the back .. this is mandatory to get the CB logo on.

And I suspect the problem you encountered could come from this. Some automatic petrol teller work with the chip while some others work with the stripe ... and of course a foreign card without any chip will not work in the first type.

I saw from time to time a paper indicating "French card only" on a petrol teller and I though it was a shortcut to indicate 'chip card only' but may be I am wrong.

Expect it helps ... if not : sorry for that
Bye


That is very plausible.

Years ago my Visa card had a chip to put cash on the cart but that never was a big succes and has this system has disappeared again but I think chips on the cards are coming back again to prevent fraude (skimming), in fact my mastercard has a chip on it so that would be a very good explanation why that one worked and not the VISA.

Before travelinng to France I saw that it is possible to bue a "prepaid" Carte Blue, meant as a gift card instead of giving cash to someone but it was a little expensive and my card worked so I never tried to get one.

Really silly that all EU countries have there own national system, where is the EU when we need it?

/Aryan

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: fre 08-09-26 13:13 
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:lol: hidden jerrycans maby a solution in a regular trunk, but in a station wagon there is no way to do so.

and why the guy should say anything? he even don't care what happend to you ore any other person, because he don't know them.....

and you are safe with E85, but not with petrol?? i cannot believe that. i guess it belongs to the jerrycan's transport itself, not to the contained stuff.

in Germany the ADAC and the ACE (german automobile clubs) give some hints about the allowance of transporting jerrycans with fuel of any kind.

ADAC
http://www.adac.de/Recht_und_Rat/kfz_zu ... geID=86866

ACE
http://www.ace-online.de/cps/rde/xchg/S ... _xHTML.htm

_________________
best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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InläggPostat: sön 08-09-28 23:32 
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Volvo-Berti skrev:
using jerrycans in France is not allowed over a maximum of 10 L. .

More complicated than that
In short
you are not allowed to store inside a house more than a few liters of gas typically 5 to 10 liters
you can transport in a vehicle up to 333 Liters in closed jerrycans (of less than 60 lters each) provided
- you have a fire extinguisher
- jerrycans are specifically designed for gas transportataion with specific United Nations mark on
- jerrycans should not lead a single drop of gas to escape, be firmly strapped and should not move when braking, cornering, etc...
- the car used for transportation is cleaned afterwards

Corresponding French text in
http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/leginauti ... burant.htm
Bye


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Ceyal35 skrev:
you can transport in a vehicle up to 333 Liters in closed jerrycans (of less than 60 lters each) provided
- you have a fire extinguisher
- jerrycans are specifically designed for gas transportataion with specific United Nations mark on
- jerrycans should not lead a single drop of gas to escape, be firmly strapped and should not move when braking, cornering, etc...
- the car used for transportation is cleaned afterwards

Corresponding French text in
http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/leginauti ... burant.htm
Bye


Thanks, but I wonder if these rules really are valid, the text is about essence (= petrol right?) and not ethanol ;-)

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: mån 08-09-29 06:07 
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the regulations Ceyal talked about are called "ADR" and mean the regulations of transporting dangerous goods on streets.

i know them, too, but they differ a little in each country, caused by the option to become regulated stronger by the administration

the ADR says the maximum of transport is NOT 333 L, its 60L!! in a transport unit (car or whatever).
to transport 333L you must have a special licence to transport dangerous goods!!

the rest was written by Ceyal

btw: in Germany its allowed to store 20 L in a cellar, but not in floors, on balkonies, roofs etc.

_________________
best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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Volvo-Berti skrev:
the regulations Ceyal talked about are called "ADR" and mean the regulations of transporting dangerous goods on streets.


That may be so but the text just talks about essence (=petrol) and not "superethanol" (=E85) or any other fluid that could burn like diesel, kerosine, oil, paint, conjac etc. One could argue that E85 contains some "essence" though, which of course is true, even more complicated it gets as the same rules apply to cars with empty jerrycans.

Volvo-Berti skrev:
i know them, too, but they differ a little in each country, caused by the option to become regulated stronger by the administration

the ADR says the maximum of transport is NOT 333 L, its 60L!! in a transport unit (car or whatever).

to transport 333L you must have a special licence to transport dangerous goods!!


I think you should rely on Ceyals translation, French is his mother tongue after all ;-).

My translation of the text is that it says 333l is maximum but the jerrycans in which you transport it may not be larger than 60 liter. (So my 2 x 20l was quite ok). If you want to transport more than 333l petrol you have to follow a lot more stringent rules.

Volvo-Berti skrev:
the rest was written by Ceyal


It also says that you may not open the jerrycans in the vehicle, hence my filling inside the car is was allowed, at least not with petrol, and that the car may not transport "other matters", hmmm that is a little problem then ;-)

The jerrycans should be well attached in the car, the car must be well ventilated, you are not allowed to have open fire or o smoke in the car and one should drive extra careful to evade an accident ;-)

Volvo-Berti skrev:
btw: in Germany its allowed to store 20 L in a cellar, but not in floors, on balkonies, roofs etc.


Are you referring to any fluid or just petrol. A lot of people probably have more water, oil, wine, brandy, paint etc in their cellars...

/Aryan

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aryan skrev:
Volvo-Berti skrev:
the regulations Ceyal talked about are called "ADR" and mean the regulations of transporting dangerous goods on streets.


That may be so but the text just talks about essence (=petrol) and not "superethanol" (=E85) or any other fluid that could burn like diesel, kerosine, oil, paint, conjac etc. One could argue that E85 contains some "essence" though, which of course is true, even more complicated it gets as the same rules apply to cars with empty jerrycans.


no, the ADR talks about "combustible fluids" and "fuels". you can really believe me, i must make the training to become a risk prevention officer (in substitution) the last years several times ;-)
E85 is a dangerous good under the regulations of the ADR. until it gets its own UN-number E85 must be transported as UN 1993 "ethanol solution".

Volvo-Berti skrev:
i know them, too, but they differ a little in each country, caused by the option to become regulated stronger by the administration

the ADR says the maximum of transport is NOT 333 L, its 60L!! in a transport unit (car or whatever).

to transport 333L you must have a special licence to transport dangerous goods!!


aryan skrev:
I think you should rely on Ceyals translation, French is his mother tongue after all ;-).

please see above, in the ADR it is not allowed to transport more than 60 L fuels (any kind)

here the ADR in German, the content in other languages is the same ;-)

1.1.3.3 Freistellungen in Zusammenhang mit der Beförderung von flüssigen Kraftstoffen

Der Kraftstoff darf in befestigten Kraftstoffbehältern, die direkt mit dem Fahrzeugmotor und/oder der Einrichtung verbunden sind und den entsprechenden gesetzlichen Vorschriften entsprechen, oder in tragbaren Kraftstoffbehältern wie Kanistern befördert werden.


that means that it is allowed to transport Kraftstoff (=fuel) in fixed tanks/reservoirs, which are connected directly to the engine, or in portable fuel cans, like jerrycans.

Der gesamte Fassungsraum der befestigten Behälter darf 1500 Liter je Beförderungseinheit und der Fassungsraum eines auf einem Anhänger befestigten Behälters darf 500 Liter nicht überschreiten. [b]Je Beförderungseinheit dürfen höchstens 60 Liter in tragbaren Kraftstoffbehältern befördert werden.

this means that the maximum of the fixed tanks is 1500L per transport unit and 500l max. in a fixed tank on a trailer. the fat written sentence says that the maximum for portable fuel cans for any transport unit is 60L!

aryan skrev:
Volvo-Berti skrev:
the rest was written by Ceyal


It also says that you may not open the jerrycans in the vehicle, hence my filling inside the car is was allowed, at least not with petrol, and that the car may not transport "other matters", hmmm that is a little problem then ;-)

The jerrycans should be well attached in the car, the car must be well ventilated, you are not allowed to have open fire or o smoke in the car and one should drive extra careful to evade an accident ;-)

yeah, just a problem in a station wagon....the ventilation always concerns the persons in the car. open fire or smoking is no problem for me as a non-smoker.
but who wants nearly open fuel cans in his back without any metal between the fuel and the inner room??

aryan skrev:
Volvo-Berti skrev:
btw: in Germany its allowed to store 20 L in a cellar, but not in floors, on balkonies, roofs etc.


Are you referring to any fluid or just petrol. A lot of people probably have more water, oil, wine, brandy, paint etc in their cellars...

/Aryan

yeah, this regulation i have meant is the TRbF 20, the "Technische Regeln für brennbare Flüssigkeiten", in English "technical regulations for combustible fluids . this is a German regulation.

_________________
best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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